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	<title>Comments on: Busting The &#8220;Drive Till You Qualify&#8221; Myth</title>
	<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/</link>
	<description>Efficiency is the straightest path to hell.*</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: guide uk casino</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-5328</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-5328</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>guide uk casino <a href="http://freeiq.com/brooklyn48?fullbio=1" rel="nofollow">casino guide best</a>
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		<title>by: john of humdinger</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1533</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 00:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1533</guid>
					<description>DanB wrote: &quot;I would argue that there is, in fact, and universal best buy. It’s one that betters quality of life for the buyer without harming others or compromising quality of life for future generations.&quot;

For the universal bestbuy to exist we must believe in  a super big brother who defines the components of the best buy, such as &quot;quality of life&quot;. This has been done many times over the centuries. It wasn't all that long ago that big brother told us to burn a few children every few months in order to keep the gods happy and thereby improve the quality of our lives.  Today big brother tells us its OK to kill 4-month old unborn babies, but we are forbidden to kill 200-year old redwood trees. Throughout history the popular edicts of temporarily respected big brothers are seen to be ridiculous in retrospect.

Do the sheeple make bad choices sometimes?
'Depends on who is the judge and the jury.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DanB wrote: &#8220;I would argue that there is, in fact, and universal best buy. It’s one that betters quality of life for the buyer without harming others or compromising quality of life for future generations.&#8221;</p>
<p>For the universal bestbuy to exist we must believe in  a super big brother who defines the components of the best buy, such as &#8220;quality of life&#8221;. This has been done many times over the centuries. It wasn&#8217;t all that long ago that big brother told us to burn a few children every few months in order to keep the gods happy and thereby improve the quality of our lives.  Today big brother tells us its OK to kill 4-month old unborn babies, but we are forbidden to kill 200-year old redwood trees. Throughout history the popular edicts of temporarily respected big brothers are seen to be ridiculous in retrospect.</p>
<p>Do the sheeple make bad choices sometimes?<br />
&#8216;Depends on who is the judge and the jury.
</p>
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		<title>by: Dan Staley</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1520</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1520</guid>
					<description>The Murrican culture has glorified individualism too*, which has helped to contribute to sprawl and many's dislike of density. Folk, when surveyed, understand the benefits of other ways of living, as they desire walkable neighborhoods by a large margin. They desire neighborhoods with lots of amenities. They desire attractive streetscapes. 

They also desire to find a bank to take the mortgage close in if they are serious about acquiring these amenities, and if they have kids, they desire to find a decent school system. 


*Rugged individualists, marching in lockstep is the modern paradigm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Murrican culture has glorified individualism too*, which has helped to contribute to sprawl and many&#8217;s dislike of density. Folk, when surveyed, understand the benefits of other ways of living, as they desire walkable neighborhoods by a large margin. They desire neighborhoods with lots of amenities. They desire attractive streetscapes. </p>
<p>They also desire to find a bank to take the mortgage close in if they are serious about acquiring these amenities, and if they have kids, they desire to find a decent school system. </p>
<p>*Rugged individualists, marching in lockstep is the modern paradigm.
</p>
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		<title>by: wizard</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1484</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1484</guid>
					<description>Gosh vanderleun, thanks for the compliment. &quot;wizard,&quot;  I like that.  Cause after all, this blog is all about me trying to look smart.

$30/hr was just a number to put it in perspective.  If you happened to be a parent and you spent that hour a day giving your kids quality attention, it would probably be more like $1000/hr, if you could quantify all the potential benefits, which of course you can't.

No doubt many people feel that their long commute is a trade off that's worth it.  But I'll say it again: fewer would feel that way if they were paying the full costs of their lifestyles.  And to that I'll add:  I believe that American culture has glorified the suburban way of life to such a degree that many people do not have a realistic perception of other ways of living and the benefits they can offer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh vanderleun, thanks for the compliment. &#8220;wizard,&#8221;  I like that.  Cause after all, this blog is all about me trying to look smart.</p>
<p>$30/hr was just a number to put it in perspective.  If you happened to be a parent and you spent that hour a day giving your kids quality attention, it would probably be more like $1000/hr, if you could quantify all the potential benefits, which of course you can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>No doubt many people feel that their long commute is a trade off that&#8217;s worth it.  But I&#8217;ll say it again: fewer would feel that way if they were paying the full costs of their lifestyles.  And to that I&#8217;ll add:  I believe that American culture has glorified the suburban way of life to such a degree that many people do not have a realistic perception of other ways of living and the benefits they can offer.
</p>
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		<title>by: vanderleun</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1467</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1467</guid>
					<description>&quot;So no, sprawl is not destiny, but rather the result of ill-informed decision making.&quot;

Yes, if only people such as your informed self could rule the Earth what a bright world it would be!

Note to wizard: People do not generally do time-benefit analysis on their lives, but prefer to live as they prefer to live. It's not all money, is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So no, sprawl is not destiny, but rather the result of ill-informed decision making.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, if only people such as your informed self could rule the Earth what a bright world it would be!</p>
<p>Note to wizard: People do not generally do time-benefit analysis on their lives, but prefer to live as they prefer to live. It&#8217;s not all money, is it?
</p>
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		<title>by: Dan Staley</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1465</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1465</guid>
					<description>And &lt;b&gt;I'm&lt;/b&gt; saying that if we had a full understanding of the large fraction of the population that doesn't mind (for whatever reason, such as the prestige Madison Ave has imparted on them for purchasing that car) spending an hour in their car, we'd offer a broad range of strategies to entice folks with families into denser neighborhoods. A good start is dumping Euclidean zoning. Not a good start is paying all externalities, as that would end global capitalism - I don't want to be around for that fight. Peak oil will do that job; sensitive, knowledgeable, caring, other-regarding people won't, as there's not enough to create a critical mass to replace a system that depends upon willful or selective or imposed ignorance of full costs and externalities to work. I'm all for paying somewhere closer to full costs and avoiding costs, and I'm not glad these energy-seeking  food shortages are making people hungry (as was expected), but I'm glad they are pointing out the fragility of our constructed and continued exploitative existence on this planet.

Hmmm...maybe I'll write these after I'm fully caffeinated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And <b>I&#8217;m</b> saying that if we had a full understanding of the large fraction of the population that doesn&#8217;t mind (for whatever reason, such as the prestige Madison Ave has imparted on them for purchasing that car) spending an hour in their car, we&#8217;d offer a broad range of strategies to entice folks with families into denser neighborhoods. A good start is dumping Euclidean zoning. Not a good start is paying all externalities, as that would end global capitalism - I don&#8217;t want to be around for that fight. Peak oil will do that job; sensitive, knowledgeable, caring, other-regarding people won&#8217;t, as there&#8217;s not enough to create a critical mass to replace a system that depends upon willful or selective or imposed ignorance of full costs and externalities to work. I&#8217;m all for paying somewhere closer to full costs and avoiding costs, and I&#8217;m not glad these energy-seeking  food shortages are making people hungry (as was expected), but I&#8217;m glad they are pointing out the fragility of our constructed and continued exploitative existence on this planet.</p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230;maybe I&#8217;ll write these after I&#8217;m fully caffeinated.
</p>
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		<title>by: danb</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1455</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1455</guid>
					<description>Humdinger John:  I would argue that there is, in fact, and universal best buy.  It's one that betters quality of life for the buyer without harming others or compromising quality of life for future generations.

It's true that the ideal model of the free market is flawless.  The problem is that in the real world all the  assumed conditions for flawless free market operation don't exist and never will.

DS:  Nowhere did I say that people shouldn't be allowed to want a big lawn.  What I am saying is that if people had a full understanding of the costs, and had to pay all of them, including the externalitiies, then far fewer would chose sprawl.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Humdinger John:  I would argue that there is, in fact, and universal best buy.  It&#8217;s one that betters quality of life for the buyer without harming others or compromising quality of life for future generations.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that the ideal model of the free market is flawless.  The problem is that in the real world all the  assumed conditions for flawless free market operation don&#8217;t exist and never will.</p>
<p>DS:  Nowhere did I say that people shouldn&#8217;t be allowed to want a big lawn.  What I am saying is that if people had a full understanding of the costs, and had to pay all of them, including the externalitiies, then far fewer would chose sprawl.
</p>
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		<title>by: Dan Staley</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1447</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1447</guid>
					<description>Not everyone wants to live in Wallingford or Wallingford densities, as I did when Dan'l, Michael and I enjoyed each other's company together (well, Dan'l might not have, but never mind). I liked the proximity, but I hated - hay-ted - the noise. 

That is: many don't like those densities for various reasons. Lots of folks like bigger yards. The GF has a nice biggish yard that I enjoy being out in - nice and quiet, lots of veggie room. 

I think we find in typical preference surveys - there are enough out there now to draw conclusions from - that most people like to have the walkable amenities and stuff close enough to walk to other than the piece of grass where the dog poops. Do most, though, like, say, New Urbanist densities? No. 1/3-1/2 do. 

Will that change when gas is 7.00 a gallon, and rents are bid up in properties close to work? Dunno. 

We've had 3 generations of folks now all growed up or used to suburban lot sizes. Won't change overnight. Do I want it to change? Yes. Do I want a yard to garden in? Yes, but I'll take a P-patch if it's a close walk. 

Is everyone like me? No. Chris Nelson thinks that by 2050, a full 25% of demand for housing will be in large-lot single-fam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not everyone wants to live in Wallingford or Wallingford densities, as I did when Dan&#8217;l, Michael and I enjoyed each other&#8217;s company together (well, Dan&#8217;l might not have, but never mind). I liked the proximity, but I hated - hay-ted - the noise. </p>
<p>That is: many don&#8217;t like those densities for various reasons. Lots of folks like bigger yards. The GF has a nice biggish yard that I enjoy being out in - nice and quiet, lots of veggie room. </p>
<p>I think we find in typical preference surveys - there are enough out there now to draw conclusions from - that most people like to have the walkable amenities and stuff close enough to walk to other than the piece of grass where the dog poops. Do most, though, like, say, New Urbanist densities? No. 1/3-1/2 do. </p>
<p>Will that change when gas is 7.00 a gallon, and rents are bid up in properties close to work? Dunno. </p>
<p>We&#8217;ve had 3 generations of folks now all growed up or used to suburban lot sizes. Won&#8217;t change overnight. Do I want it to change? Yes. Do I want a yard to garden in? Yes, but I&#8217;ll take a P-patch if it&#8217;s a close walk. </p>
<p>Is everyone like me? No. Chris Nelson thinks that by 2050, a full 25% of demand for housing will be in large-lot single-fam.
</p>
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		<title>by: John of Humdinger</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1446</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1446</guid>
					<description>There is no such thing as &quot;A flaw in the free market&quot;.
To believe in the existence of same necessitates the belief in some sort of universal &quot;best buys&quot;.

The free market is simply the opportunity to spend one's money, or waste one's money, as one sees fit.
If the sheeple find that a home in the suburbs is not worth their money they'll move back. Every money spending decision is a gamble based on hope for future happiness. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. (Some folks enjoy the hour's commute as time for themselves; few folks charge themselves 30 bucks an hour for every hour they are not on the work clock, unless they live only to work.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no such thing as &#8220;A flaw in the free market&#8221;.<br />
To believe in the existence of same necessitates the belief in some sort of universal &#8220;best buys&#8221;.</p>
<p>The free market is simply the opportunity to spend one&#8217;s money, or waste one&#8217;s money, as one sees fit.<br />
If the sheeple find that a home in the suburbs is not worth their money they&#8217;ll move back. Every money spending decision is a gamble based on hope for future happiness. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn&#8217;t. (Some folks enjoy the hour&#8217;s commute as time for themselves; few folks charge themselves 30 bucks an hour for every hour they are not on the work clock, unless they live only to work.)
</p>
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		<title>by: SeattleArchitect</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1443</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/04/14/busting-the-drive-till-you-qualify-myth/#comment-1443</guid>
					<description>Very thoughtful and articulate post.  While I may differ just a bit in believing in the idea and salvation of a free market, I also see the need for better priorities and options.  There is no better way to save this planet than to decrease the distance between where people work and where they live, to increase the amount of housing and workplaces in the urban centers [where the infrastructure already exists] and to improve the quality of the live/work/play environment of our cities, so as to make it the more attractive option. Density is our only salvation, but there is good density and bad density...lets hope that we can figure out the good way of doing it before its too late.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very thoughtful and articulate post.  While I may differ just a bit in believing in the idea and salvation of a free market, I also see the need for better priorities and options.  There is no better way to save this planet than to decrease the distance between where people work and where they live, to increase the amount of housing and workplaces in the urban centers [where the infrastructure already exists] and to improve the quality of the live/work/play environment of our cities, so as to make it the more attractive option. Density is our only salvation, but there is good density and bad density&#8230;lets hope that we can figure out the good way of doing it before its too late.
</p>
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