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	<title>Comments on: Dearborn Street Development Conditionally Approved</title>
	<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/</link>
	<description>There are angels, in your angles, there's a low moon caught in your tangles...*</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: michael</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-4363</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-4363</guid>
					<description>It all may be moot anyhow because even if the developer gets final approval, they have admitted that given the current market, it wouldn't make sense for them to move forward. Will the market ever be right for this kind of (suburban)commercial development inside a city center? Are there better uses for this site? Makes me wonder.

I would say that your conclusion that this project takes us one step closer to sustainability brings the concept of sustainability to new levels of meaninglessness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It all may be moot anyhow because even if the developer gets final approval, they have admitted that given the current market, it wouldn&#8217;t make sense for them to move forward. Will the market ever be right for this kind of (suburban)commercial development inside a city center? Are there better uses for this site? Makes me wonder.</p>
<p>I would say that your conclusion that this project takes us one step closer to sustainability brings the concept of sustainability to new levels of meaninglessness.
</p>
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		<title>by: Japhet</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-4360</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-4360</guid>
					<description>It seems that there are three objections to this project, and neither of them seems particularly well informed or valid. 

1. The parking garage is too big. The reality is that  very few people can survive in Seattle without a car, and no retail tenant will sign a lease without adequate parking, so if we want urban retail (which we say we do) we need parking garages.  The great thing about parking is that they are land banks, if Seattle ever gets around to providing a transit system, then that garage can be redeveloped. Anytime the City doesn't have to pay for the construction of a parking garage, we (as citizens and taxpayers) win.  That means fewer public resources are squandered on an unsustainable investment.   
2. Big box stores are evil.  You shop at Target, IKEA Home Depot, etc., and so do I.  If you can afford to shop at the downtown boutique stores for your everyday necessities, then bully for you, but the rest of the city can't. Besides, these stores are tenants; if the economy shifts to make them less desirable, then they will close and be replaced by smaller stores.  This argument is irrelevant to the discussion. 
3. This development will hurt local businesses.  This is contrary to just about everything I know about retail. The new development will draw thousands of new customers to the area from the adjacent, wealthy neighborhoods of Capitol Hill, Madison Park, Madrona, and Mt Baker, as well as middle income residents of the Rainier Valley and the central district.  Once they are in the area, they are more likely to spend money at other businesses.  The businesses around the center will benefit tremendously from the development; not the reverse. This argument is unequivocally false. 

Fundamentally, this project takes a dilapidated, ugly site, that serves a fairly small population and turns it into something that contributes to the community, and accomplishes many of our goals as a city, and takes us one step closer to sustainability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that there are three objections to this project, and neither of them seems particularly well informed or valid. </p>
<p>1. The parking garage is too big. The reality is that  very few people can survive in Seattle without a car, and no retail tenant will sign a lease without adequate parking, so if we want urban retail (which we say we do) we need parking garages.  The great thing about parking is that they are land banks, if Seattle ever gets around to providing a transit system, then that garage can be redeveloped. Anytime the City doesn&#8217;t have to pay for the construction of a parking garage, we (as citizens and taxpayers) win.  That means fewer public resources are squandered on an unsustainable investment.<br />
2. Big box stores are evil.  You shop at Target, IKEA Home Depot, etc., and so do I.  If you can afford to shop at the downtown boutique stores for your everyday necessities, then bully for you, but the rest of the city can&#8217;t. Besides, these stores are tenants; if the economy shifts to make them less desirable, then they will close and be replaced by smaller stores.  This argument is irrelevant to the discussion.<br />
3. This development will hurt local businesses.  This is contrary to just about everything I know about retail. The new development will draw thousands of new customers to the area from the adjacent, wealthy neighborhoods of Capitol Hill, Madison Park, Madrona, and Mt Baker, as well as middle income residents of the Rainier Valley and the central district.  Once they are in the area, they are more likely to spend money at other businesses.  The businesses around the center will benefit tremendously from the development; not the reverse. This argument is unequivocally false. </p>
<p>Fundamentally, this project takes a dilapidated, ugly site, that serves a fairly small population and turns it into something that contributes to the community, and accomplishes many of our goals as a city, and takes us one step closer to sustainability.
</p>
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		<title>by: danb</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2030</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 07:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2030</guid>
					<description>Andrew, no, of course I don't believe cars will disappear in 20 years.  But will a project like Dearborn make sense then?  I'd say probably not so much.  Buildings last a long time.  

Your comparison regarding trips to Renton makes sense only if you assume that it is necessary for people to shop at big box stores.  It is quite possible that the big box model will not survive in the world of peak oil and GHG gas emissions regulation.  As I argued in a previous post, big box is unsustainable on many levels.

http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/03/09/ban-big-box/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, no, of course I don&#8217;t believe cars will disappear in 20 years.  But will a project like Dearborn make sense then?  I&#8217;d say probably not so much.  Buildings last a long time.  </p>
<p>Your comparison regarding trips to Renton makes sense only if you assume that it is necessary for people to shop at big box stores.  It is quite possible that the big box model will not survive in the world of peak oil and GHG gas emissions regulation.  As I argued in a previous post, big box is unsustainable on many levels.</p>
<p><a href='http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/03/09/ban-big-box/' rel='nofollow'>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/03/09/ban-big-box/</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2009</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 09:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2009</guid>
					<description>I am mister transit (I started the Seattle Transit Blog, after all) but do you really think people won't be driving in 20 years? Even if getting in a car is expensive, people will still do it for the big-purchases.

Not like now, I'm sure, but we still will be, even after oil becomes expensive:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3ASeatrans.blogspot.com+coal&amp;#38;rls=com.microsoft:*&amp;#38;ie=UTF-8&amp;#38;oe=UTF-8&amp;#38;startIndex=&amp;#38;startPage=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am mister transit (I started the Seattle Transit Blog, after all) but do you really think people won&#8217;t be driving in 20 years? Even if getting in a car is expensive, people will still do it for the big-purchases.</p>
<p>Not like now, I&#8217;m sure, but we still will be, even after oil becomes expensive:<br />
<a href='http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3ASeatrans.blogspot.com+coal&amp;rls=com.microsoft:*&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;startIndex=&amp;startPage=1' rel='nofollow'>http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3ASeatrans.blogspot.com+coal&amp;rls=com.microsoft:*&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;startIndex=&amp;startPage=1</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: David Sucher</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2004</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 23:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2004</guid>
					<description>&quot;How smart a use of land and resources will those 2300 parking stalls seem in 20 years?&quot;

Depends on whether the garage is designed for easy adaptation to another use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;How smart a use of land and resources will those 2300 parking stalls seem in 20 years?&#8221;</p>
<p>Depends on whether the garage is designed for easy adaptation to another use.
</p>
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		<title>by: danb</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2002</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 20:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2002</guid>
					<description>dorian gray:  Readers of this blog understand that developers are not magicians and must answer to the realities of the financial system.  Time to let go of that straw man.  

I am interested in understanding why our economic and political system isn't doing a better job of enabling development that better suits the needs of the future, primarily with respect to global warming and peak oil.  

As I've said and commenters have noted, the Goodwill project is good in some ways, bad in others.  I can't help critiquing a project that sacrifices good urban design for parking, especially when considering the heightening need for us to reduce car dependence in the future.  

How smart a use of land and resources will those 2300 parking stalls seem in 20 years?  Maybe the homeless will live in them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dorian gray:  Readers of this blog understand that developers are not magicians and must answer to the realities of the financial system.  Time to let go of that straw man.  </p>
<p>I am interested in understanding why our economic and political system isn&#8217;t doing a better job of enabling development that better suits the needs of the future, primarily with respect to global warming and peak oil.  </p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve said and commenters have noted, the Goodwill project is good in some ways, bad in others.  I can&#8217;t help critiquing a project that sacrifices good urban design for parking, especially when considering the heightening need for us to reduce car dependence in the future.  </p>
<p>How smart a use of land and resources will those 2300 parking stalls seem in 20 years?  Maybe the homeless will live in them.
</p>
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		<title>by: Rob A</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2000</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 19:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-2000</guid>
					<description>This will be a good addition to the city IMHO. It is close in, allowing people to do their shopping near where they live, versus driving to Northgate, Renton or some other burb. Sure, people may still drive to get there, but driving 2 miles is surely a lot better than driving 20 miles. The affordable residential is also a big plus. Sure, it is big, but it is A LOT of units and still nice densification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This will be a good addition to the city IMHO. It is close in, allowing people to do their shopping near where they live, versus driving to Northgate, Renton or some other burb. Sure, people may still drive to get there, but driving 2 miles is surely a lot better than driving 20 miles. The affordable residential is also a big plus. Sure, it is big, but it is A LOT of units and still nice densification.
</p>
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		<title>by: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-1989</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 07:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-1989</guid>
					<description>17,000 trips a day is a massive over estimation. 

But here's the real question, since a Fry's is going in there, are (absolute max-end) 10,000 trips a day better than 5,000 trips from the city to Renton each day?

It's pretty obvious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>17,000 trips a day is a massive over estimation. </p>
<p>But here&#8217;s the real question, since a Fry&#8217;s is going in there, are (absolute max-end) 10,000 trips a day better than 5,000 trips from the city to Renton each day?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s pretty obvious.
</p>
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		<title>by: NBeacon Jon</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-1984</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 20:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-1984</guid>
					<description>This is welcome step in the process.  It'll be nice to have some more shopping alternatives nearby without adding to my carbon footprint by driving to exotic lands like Bellevue and Tukwila.  

I see people deriding the aesthetics of the design here, and I don't understand.  You get the feeling that a field of weeds, garbage, and god knows what is more desirable.  Are they maybe expecting the Riviera with 25 parking stalls and 400 bike racks?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is welcome step in the process.  It&#8217;ll be nice to have some more shopping alternatives nearby without adding to my carbon footprint by driving to exotic lands like Bellevue and Tukwila.  </p>
<p>I see people deriding the aesthetics of the design here, and I don&#8217;t understand.  You get the feeling that a field of weeds, garbage, and god knows what is more desirable.  Are they maybe expecting the Riviera with 25 parking stalls and 400 bike racks?
</p>
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		<title>by: michael</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-1982</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 18:34:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/05/08/dearborn-street-development-conditionally-approved/#comment-1982</guid>
					<description>“Anybody out there who's got a project that has any sort of greenhouse emissions associated with it, they would be well advised to talk about that in their SEPA documents,” Manning [Director DoE] said. “The (legal) risk exists today and frankly, I'm surprised that the litigation hasn't surfaced.” 

I wonder how they discuss the GHG emissions resulting from the 17,000 additional trips/day this project will generate in their SEPA docs...

Good thing for this project that the State is still a couple years off from mandated GHG mitigation...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Anybody out there who&#8217;s got a project that has any sort of greenhouse emissions associated with it, they would be well advised to talk about that in their SEPA documents,” Manning [Director DoE] said. “The (legal) risk exists today and frankly, I&#8217;m surprised that the litigation hasn&#8217;t surfaced.” </p>
<p>I wonder how they discuss the GHG emissions resulting from the 17,000 additional trips/day this project will generate in their SEPA docs&#8230;</p>
<p>Good thing for this project that the State is still a couple years off from mandated GHG mitigation&#8230;
</p>
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