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	<title>Comments on: If You Want To Understand The Real Reason There Are So Many Sucky Townhouses Going Up&#8230;</title>
	<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/</link>
	<description>Efficiency is the straightest path to hell.*</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Spencer</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-3583</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-3583</guid>
					<description>Mike, are you thinking of &quot;Row Houses&quot; when you see &quot;Townhouses&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, are you thinking of &#8220;Row Houses&#8221; when you see &#8220;Townhouses&#8221;?
</p>
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		<title>by: mike</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-3201</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-3201</guid>
					<description>i hate to hit semantics, but these projects (at least the ones going up all over fremont and interbay) are not townhouses. 90% are duplexes built on subdivided lots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i hate to hit semantics, but these projects (at least the ones going up all over fremont and interbay) are not townhouses. 90% are duplexes built on subdivided lots.
</p>
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		<title>by: Johnny Hartsfield</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-3058</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-3058</guid>
					<description>I agree with everything you are saying in most of these entries.  Townhomes, zoning and open space especially.  

I have a sustainable design blog http://green-fab.com/blog/ for my new development company GreenFab that is attempting to highlight these and other sustainability issues.  I live and breath Seattle too, check it out and we should chat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with everything you are saying in most of these entries.  Townhomes, zoning and open space especially.  </p>
<p>I have a sustainable design blog <a href='http://green-fab.com/blog/' rel='nofollow'>http://green-fab.com/blog/</a> for my new development company GreenFab that is attempting to highlight these and other sustainability issues.  I live and breath Seattle too, check it out and we should chat.
</p>
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		<title>by: Sabina Pade</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2920</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2920</guid>
					<description>In our debates over how to build a convivial, pedestrian-oriented, sustainable Seattle are we perhaps overlooking something?

FWIW, I'm approaching 50, and I've never held a driver's license.  I've always felt that cars, albeit useful sometimes, are our planet's Enemy No. 1.

But it could be that technological evolution is about to fundamentally alter the equation - and our discussions.  Check this out:

http://www.aptera.com/

Apparently, at a recent Shell Oil-sponsored eco-car marathon in California, vehicles were recording mpg figures far surpassing those of the Aptera.  The marathon winner reportedly achieved 2,843mpg!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In our debates over how to build a convivial, pedestrian-oriented, sustainable Seattle are we perhaps overlooking something?</p>
<p>FWIW, I&#8217;m approaching 50, and I&#8217;ve never held a driver&#8217;s license.  I&#8217;ve always felt that cars, albeit useful sometimes, are our planet&#8217;s Enemy No. 1.</p>
<p>But it could be that technological evolution is about to fundamentally alter the equation - and our discussions.  Check this out:</p>
<p><a href='http://www.aptera.com/' rel='nofollow'>http://www.aptera.com/</a></p>
<p>Apparently, at a recent Shell Oil-sponsored eco-car marathon in California, vehicles were recording mpg figures far surpassing those of the Aptera.  The marathon winner reportedly achieved 2,843mpg!
</p>
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		<title>by: Spencer</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2915</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2915</guid>
					<description>What a lot of you are talking about are planning issues and also legal issues.  Brought up in the PI article about last Saturday's forum was the Landuse Code's inflexibility to allow for other methods of developing on city sized parcels.  Also cited is the legal advantage to zero lot lines.  We can not just look at this as a problem of people either not wanting, knowing to want, or building something different.  This is a deeply rooted problem in economic, landuse/building code, and legal issues.

Building Townhomes different than they are now requires different applications of the building code (sprinkling systems, increased fire protection, etc.).  This all equates to cost for developers.  It is short sighted to think that all developers are about the bottom line.  Many do see themselves as providing a needed service to the community but modifying the design produces more costs in turn raising the sale price of these homes.

Our landuse code may not approach density in proper and realistic ways.  I've always wondered why north green lake is zoned low-rise residential.  It's clearly close to only automobile oriented commercial.  Above there is a comment about building apartment buildings in place of townhomes but that would require a rezone or more property to get the increased density needed.  Which makes me wonder if we had too much low-rise zones to begin with and not enough high density zones.

It also seems the size of the lots to density is not right.  If any of you attended the Tuesday forum on Portland's courtyard housing design competition it was clear that to make courtyard housing work lower density zoning and a minimum of two lots are needed.  Which means that a developer has to be involved in so good timing and a certain amount of luck to get two 50x100 lots to develop courtyard housing on.

All in all, what DPD is proposing at this time are baby steps in a long and rooted problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a lot of you are talking about are planning issues and also legal issues.  Brought up in the PI article about last Saturday&#8217;s forum was the Landuse Code&#8217;s inflexibility to allow for other methods of developing on city sized parcels.  Also cited is the legal advantage to zero lot lines.  We can not just look at this as a problem of people either not wanting, knowing to want, or building something different.  This is a deeply rooted problem in economic, landuse/building code, and legal issues.</p>
<p>Building Townhomes different than they are now requires different applications of the building code (sprinkling systems, increased fire protection, etc.).  This all equates to cost for developers.  It is short sighted to think that all developers are about the bottom line.  Many do see themselves as providing a needed service to the community but modifying the design produces more costs in turn raising the sale price of these homes.</p>
<p>Our landuse code may not approach density in proper and realistic ways.  I&#8217;ve always wondered why north green lake is zoned low-rise residential.  It&#8217;s clearly close to only automobile oriented commercial.  Above there is a comment about building apartment buildings in place of townhomes but that would require a rezone or more property to get the increased density needed.  Which makes me wonder if we had too much low-rise zones to begin with and not enough high density zones.</p>
<p>It also seems the size of the lots to density is not right.  If any of you attended the Tuesday forum on Portland&#8217;s courtyard housing design competition it was clear that to make courtyard housing work lower density zoning and a minimum of two lots are needed.  Which means that a developer has to be involved in so good timing and a certain amount of luck to get two 50&#215;100 lots to develop courtyard housing on.</p>
<p>All in all, what DPD is proposing at this time are baby steps in a long and rooted problem.
</p>
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		<title>by: dan bertolet</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2912</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2912</guid>
					<description>Sabina @1 said:  &quot;Many of Seattle’s currently single-family neighbourhood street grids would comfortably receive 5-storey townhouses with parking to their rear.&quot;

Actually no, 5-storey housing unit density is too high to fit a 1 stall per unit parking ratio in the rear of the building.  Unless you're proposing very large units, which of course means they would be more expensive and lower density.

I'm not sure what you mean by 5-storey townhouse - a single unit on five-levels is a very impractical design.  Some projects in Seattle have two or three floors of flats over 2-storey TH base with street entries, which works well - e.g., the back side of Brix on Broadway.  But these buildings couldn't really be called townhouses.

Those London townhouses may have parking behind them, but the higher the parking ratio, the more expensive the housing, and the less space left for people.

Yes, townhouses with parking can be done well.  But my point is that accomodating cars is at odds with affordability, density, and livability (i.e. urban design).  And given the prospects for the future we are dumb if we let the cars dominate the equation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sabina @1 said:  &#8220;Many of Seattle’s currently single-family neighbourhood street grids would comfortably receive 5-storey townhouses with parking to their rear.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually no, 5-storey housing unit density is too high to fit a 1 stall per unit parking ratio in the rear of the building.  Unless you&#8217;re proposing very large units, which of course means they would be more expensive and lower density.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what you mean by 5-storey townhouse - a single unit on five-levels is a very impractical design.  Some projects in Seattle have two or three floors of flats over 2-storey TH base with street entries, which works well - e.g., the back side of Brix on Broadway.  But these buildings couldn&#8217;t really be called townhouses.</p>
<p>Those London townhouses may have parking behind them, but the higher the parking ratio, the more expensive the housing, and the less space left for people.</p>
<p>Yes, townhouses with parking can be done well.  But my point is that accomodating cars is at odds with affordability, density, and livability (i.e. urban design).  And given the prospects for the future we are dumb if we let the cars dominate the equation.
</p>
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		<title>by: JoshMahar</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2866</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2866</guid>
					<description>It's absolutely true that vehicles are, in the words of Jane Jacobs, another 60's city guru, &quot;eroding our cities&quot;. But, as you point out Dan, even getting rid of parking requirements doesn't change the market demand. How many condos in the &lt;i&gt;Center City&lt;/i&gt; have been built without parking, where there are no requirements? None.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s absolutely true that vehicles are, in the words of Jane Jacobs, another 60&#8217;s city guru, &#8220;eroding our cities&#8221;. But, as you point out Dan, even getting rid of parking requirements doesn&#8217;t change the market demand. How many condos in the <i>Center City</i> have been built without parking, where there are no requirements? None.
</p>
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		<title>by: old timer</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2858</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2858</guid>
					<description>FWIW -
 I lived in New York, in a 'townhouse' that had been converted to apartments.  2 to a floor, 5 floors high, 10 units total.  The basement rear apartment had the 'garden' access.  My place was the 'parlor' floor front, 1/2 story above street level, with 14 foot ceilings.  

No garages, but space was available in a garage building about 2 blocks away.  Rent for garage was equivalent to my rent controlled apartment rent, and you were allowed to take the car out once a day. An attendant would bring it down on an elevator. 

The author makes extremely incisive observations about the lack of community connection and economics as a driver of the townhouse 'problem'.  But, we are also being told about all the newcomers we have to accommodate, and developers are developers.  

Can we expect the houses we build to solve our aesthetic angst about their existence?

Don't know.  Maybe limiting units per plot would be a start.  No more 4-packs or 6-packs, just doubles or 3 packs.  

I'm counting on Seattle's &quot;Boomtown&quot; history to put a stop to the townhouse issue.  The money will dry up, and no more will be built for a while.  Maybe we can figure out something before the next boom.

Thanks for the chance to spout off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW -<br />
 I lived in New York, in a &#8216;townhouse&#8217; that had been converted to apartments.  2 to a floor, 5 floors high, 10 units total.  The basement rear apartment had the &#8216;garden&#8217; access.  My place was the &#8216;parlor&#8217; floor front, 1/2 story above street level, with 14 foot ceilings.  </p>
<p>No garages, but space was available in a garage building about 2 blocks away.  Rent for garage was equivalent to my rent controlled apartment rent, and you were allowed to take the car out once a day. An attendant would bring it down on an elevator. </p>
<p>The author makes extremely incisive observations about the lack of community connection and economics as a driver of the townhouse &#8216;problem&#8217;.  But, we are also being told about all the newcomers we have to accommodate, and developers are developers.  </p>
<p>Can we expect the houses we build to solve our aesthetic angst about their existence?</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t know.  Maybe limiting units per plot would be a start.  No more 4-packs or 6-packs, just doubles or 3 packs.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m counting on Seattle&#8217;s &#8220;Boomtown&#8221; history to put a stop to the townhouse issue.  The money will dry up, and no more will be built for a while.  Maybe we can figure out something before the next boom.</p>
<p>Thanks for the chance to spout off.
</p>
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		<title>by: mahalie</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2854</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2854</guid>
					<description>Anyone whose been to a major city, as in NYC, London, Rome, etc...will not a clear difference in Seattle's current dense development. In addition to big mixed-use complexes, there should be a place for far denser SF units...like the brownstones and town-homes so coveted NYC and SF. There's nothing wrong with wanting a tiny bit of a yard...or even a garage, how many garages were the start pads for budding entrepreneurs? Shouldn't one be able to have a life, and hobby, outside work that demands a place like a garage?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone whose been to a major city, as in NYC, London, Rome, etc&#8230;will not a clear difference in Seattle&#8217;s current dense development. In addition to big mixed-use complexes, there should be a place for far denser SF units&#8230;like the brownstones and town-homes so coveted NYC and SF. There&#8217;s nothing wrong with wanting a tiny bit of a yard&#8230;or even a garage, how many garages were the start pads for budding entrepreneurs? Shouldn&#8217;t one be able to have a life, and hobby, outside work that demands a place like a garage?
</p>
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		<title>by: Steve</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2853</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/11/if-you-want-to-understand-the-real-reason-there-are-so-many-sucky-townhouses-going-up/#comment-2853</guid>
					<description>Sara N - 

Is there a significant market for detached accessory dwelling units?  Has much come out of the legislation allowing them in SE Seattle?

(To be clear: I really like the DADU concept -- I just haven't seen many going up, so I'm curious if I'm missing them or if they just haven't happened.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sara N - </p>
<p>Is there a significant market for detached accessory dwelling units?  Has much come out of the legislation allowing them in SE Seattle?</p>
<p>(To be clear: I really like the DADU concept &#8212; I just haven&#8217;t seen many going up, so I&#8217;m curious if I&#8217;m missing them or if they just haven&#8217;t happened.)
</p>
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