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	<title>Comments on: Somebody Help Me Out Here</title>
	<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/</link>
	<description>Efficiency is the straightest path to hell.*</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Christo</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3182</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3182</guid>
					<description>Who is this guy and what is his association to Seattle's SE and to the city at large?

While I believe that better infrastructure (light rail, roads) translate into economic growth, I would have to say that I don't totally understand the argument (or have heard it expressed) that density improves a city.

That said, I believe up-zoned development around the light rail stations is positive. If private interests think the area around light rail worth it, then I'm sure job creating businesses in the area will also see the worth in placing themselves in proximity to the stations.

One thing I am thinking about lately is whether there is enough commercial zoning around the stations, particularly CC, where I now live.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who is this guy and what is his association to Seattle&#8217;s SE and to the city at large?</p>
<p>While I believe that better infrastructure (light rail, roads) translate into economic growth, I would have to say that I don&#8217;t totally understand the argument (or have heard it expressed) that density improves a city.</p>
<p>That said, I believe up-zoned development around the light rail stations is positive. If private interests think the area around light rail worth it, then I&#8217;m sure job creating businesses in the area will also see the worth in placing themselves in proximity to the stations.</p>
<p>One thing I am thinking about lately is whether there is enough commercial zoning around the stations, particularly CC, where I now live.
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		<title>by: Sara Nikolic</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3144</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3144</guid>
					<description>Since I am the &quot;forces of ever increased density&quot; to whom the author refers, who has indeed been lobbying both Council and the Mayor, I suppose I should respond. Unfortunately I am a bit lost for words. Does the author have an alternate plan for growth management, or does he, as I suspect, believe that preventing upzones is a  way to stave off growth entirely? I happen to believe that growth is a very good thing...but I dont imagine that argument would get me very far. Perhaps it would make him feel better to know that I am also lobbying for increased retail and commercial uses in station areas. This will, of course, make for more jobs along the light rail line and should help quell his concerns about so many people moving to station areas, and then driving to work. It should also make him feel better to know that people who move to station areas will do so in large part to be close to the transit--a trend that we are already seeing. It will be a self-selecting population for whom the transit is an attractive amenity that they plan to use. So citing general population employment stats does not really apply. 

But I doubt those arguments will really help.

The bottom line is that 1.7 million people are expected to join this region, upzones are no -- and the only choice I see is where to put that growth, not whether or not to accept the growth. Ultimately, I feel that density is a moral obligation, yes, and I will continue to uphold that -- but not as an end unto itself. I am not really a &quot;density&quot; advocate. I am an advocate for responsible growth management, for environmental sustainability, for social equity, for economic prosperity, for good urban design. Density is just the tool to get us there. 

So perhaps all I can offer to Doug Cargill is to say with the utmost sincerity that I am not trying to destroy his neighborhood. I truly believe that density can happen with respect to neighborhood values and character. It means change, yes, but it doesnt have to mean change for the worse. But the only way to get change right is for neighbors to take part in the process, and to fight together for the amenities and infrastructure investments that make increased density livable -- and that cant happen if they are already setting up armies before the process even starts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since I am the &#8220;forces of ever increased density&#8221; to whom the author refers, who has indeed been lobbying both Council and the Mayor, I suppose I should respond. Unfortunately I am a bit lost for words. Does the author have an alternate plan for growth management, or does he, as I suspect, believe that preventing upzones is a  way to stave off growth entirely? I happen to believe that growth is a very good thing&#8230;but I dont imagine that argument would get me very far. Perhaps it would make him feel better to know that I am also lobbying for increased retail and commercial uses in station areas. This will, of course, make for more jobs along the light rail line and should help quell his concerns about so many people moving to station areas, and then driving to work. It should also make him feel better to know that people who move to station areas will do so in large part to be close to the transit&#8211;a trend that we are already seeing. It will be a self-selecting population for whom the transit is an attractive amenity that they plan to use. So citing general population employment stats does not really apply. </p>
<p>But I doubt those arguments will really help.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that 1.7 million people are expected to join this region, upzones are no &#8212; and the only choice I see is where to put that growth, not whether or not to accept the growth. Ultimately, I feel that density is a moral obligation, yes, and I will continue to uphold that &#8212; but not as an end unto itself. I am not really a &#8220;density&#8221; advocate. I am an advocate for responsible growth management, for environmental sustainability, for social equity, for economic prosperity, for good urban design. Density is just the tool to get us there. </p>
<p>So perhaps all I can offer to Doug Cargill is to say with the utmost sincerity that I am not trying to destroy his neighborhood. I truly believe that density can happen with respect to neighborhood values and character. It means change, yes, but it doesnt have to mean change for the worse. But the only way to get change right is for neighbors to take part in the process, and to fight together for the amenities and infrastructure investments that make increased density livable &#8212; and that cant happen if they are already setting up armies before the process even starts.
</p>
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		<title>by: JoshMahar</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3133</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3133</guid>
					<description>This person is obviously jaded in their perspective of a city. Crime per capita doesn't go up with denser places. This is such a general misconception. If you look at the statistics of Seattle neighborhoods, some of the worst crime rates per capita are either suburbs (burien, marysville), or city neighborhoods with too few residents (i.e. the ID and South Lake Union).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This person is obviously jaded in their perspective of a city. Crime per capita doesn&#8217;t go up with denser places. This is such a general misconception. If you look at the statistics of Seattle neighborhoods, some of the worst crime rates per capita are either suburbs (burien, marysville), or city neighborhoods with too few residents (i.e. the ID and South Lake Union).
</p>
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		<title>by: demo kid</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3131</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 15:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3131</guid>
					<description>Brilliant.  This guy is definitely a winner.  So let's see... if all of these new housing were being built in Samammish instead, there would be no need to expand their police department or school system?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant.  This guy is definitely a winner.  So let&#8217;s see&#8230; if all of these new housing were being built in Samammish instead, there would be no need to expand their police department or school system?
</p>
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		<title>by: Roger P.</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3121</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 22:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3121</guid>
					<description>If our approach to public issues is lots of heat, and very little light, then the author is on his way. But sorry, that's not my approach. 

He says &quot;... the City wants to up-zone vast areas in order to “promote ridership goals for the regional line” (last sentence on page 3 of 5). This is the tail wagging the dog. Since it doesn’t appear that Sound Transit is going to reach their ridership numbers (and thus jeopardize further federal funding), the residents of SE Seattle are gong to be forced to accept a significant increase in density surrounding the platforms.&quot;

Nobody in City Hall expects Sound Transit to not meet ridership goals. First, those goals were set with current zoning and development patterns in mind. Federal regulations don't permit ridership estimates to be based on speculative new development. With the unexpected rise in fuel prices, the better expectation is that ridership will be more than predicted, not less, when the line opens a year from now.

Yes, you can list lots of places that this very first line does not go. Big deal. The first line in Denver only went 5 miles to a nowhere neighborhood, but look at their system today. And I wouldn't put Southcenter real high on the priority list, what with development patterns that provide one free parking spot for every shopper and employee. There needs to be major policy changes made for that area, before it can become an effective transit hub.

I haven't seen the City document(s) to which he alludes, but his reading seems rather limited. Better to simply encourage people to be engaged in the process and insist on high design standards. My observation is that people don't so much object to new development per se (at whatever density) but rather that it's so poorly designed, so ugly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If our approach to public issues is lots of heat, and very little light, then the author is on his way. But sorry, that&#8217;s not my approach. </p>
<p>He says &#8220;&#8230; the City wants to up-zone vast areas in order to “promote ridership goals for the regional line” (last sentence on page 3 of 5). This is the tail wagging the dog. Since it doesn’t appear that Sound Transit is going to reach their ridership numbers (and thus jeopardize further federal funding), the residents of SE Seattle are gong to be forced to accept a significant increase in density surrounding the platforms.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nobody in City Hall expects Sound Transit to not meet ridership goals. First, those goals were set with current zoning and development patterns in mind. Federal regulations don&#8217;t permit ridership estimates to be based on speculative new development. With the unexpected rise in fuel prices, the better expectation is that ridership will be more than predicted, not less, when the line opens a year from now.</p>
<p>Yes, you can list lots of places that this very first line does not go. Big deal. The first line in Denver only went 5 miles to a nowhere neighborhood, but look at their system today. And I wouldn&#8217;t put Southcenter real high on the priority list, what with development patterns that provide one free parking spot for every shopper and employee. There needs to be major policy changes made for that area, before it can become an effective transit hub.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t seen the City document(s) to which he alludes, but his reading seems rather limited. Better to simply encourage people to be engaged in the process and insist on high design standards. My observation is that people don&#8217;t so much object to new development per se (at whatever density) but rather that it&#8217;s so poorly designed, so ugly.
</p>
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		<title>by: Renee</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3120</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:59:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3120</guid>
					<description>I think this is part of the attachment referred to.   (See Sally Clark's web site)

http://www.seattle.gov/council/attachments/2008neigh_plans.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is part of the attachment referred to.   (See Sally Clark&#8217;s web site)</p>
<p><a href='http://www.seattle.gov/council/attachments/2008neigh_plans.pdf' rel='nofollow'>http://www.seattle.gov/council/attachments/2008neigh_plans.pdf</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: litlnemo</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3118</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3118</guid>
					<description>The link to the attachment does not work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The link to the attachment does not work.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ben</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3116</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/06/21/somebody-help-me-out-here/#comment-3116</guid>
					<description>I have to say that the author made some good points.

The rail line will not serve Southcenter and UW. It also has no link to Redmond or Bellevue. This means that it will be a poor commuter rail system IMO. Poor public transport encourages car ownership.

Encouraging higher density with no good public transport will make things worse. The right thing to do is to build rail to Bellevue, Redmond (near MS), Southcenter, UW, Downtown and the airport. Once this has been done, you only have to allow higher density development - it will encourage itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say that the author made some good points.</p>
<p>The rail line will not serve Southcenter and UW. It also has no link to Redmond or Bellevue. This means that it will be a poor commuter rail system IMO. Poor public transport encourages car ownership.</p>
<p>Encouraging higher density with no good public transport will make things worse. The right thing to do is to build rail to Bellevue, Redmond (near MS), Southcenter, UW, Downtown and the airport. Once this has been done, you only have to allow higher density development - it will encourage itself.
</p>
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