Comments on: Someplace, Somewhere…they’ve got it figured out http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/ Efficiency is the straightest path to hell.* Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:01:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: Bob http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-9513 Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:00:31 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-9513 It's the Carrall Street Greenway. I don't think it's 100% done yet - a block or two to go still. It’s the Carrall Street Greenway. I don’t think it’s 100% done yet - a block or two to go still.

]]> by: wes http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-9507 Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:43:05 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-9507 Wow, that is really nice Bob. Where is this beauty at? Will go check it out the next time I'm in Vancouver. Wow, that is really nice Bob. Where is this beauty at? Will go check it out the next time I’m in Vancouver.

]]> by: Bob http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-9475 Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:44:59 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-9475 The issue of safety, while important, is almost secondary to the fact that separated bike infrastructure will get people out riding bikes who won't ride in painted lanes mixed with traffic. i.e. chicken cyclists like me. The european bike facilities attract all kinds of cyclists - seniors, moms/dads with kids, young folk, etc.... everyone feels comfortable. How many of those people would cycle with traffic with buses buzzing by them?? If we want to seriously increase the number of people cycling in cities in the US and Canada - we need to build bike lanes that scaredy-cat cyclists will use. Period. All the training and education in the world isn't going to make me want to ride in a lane I share with buses right next to aggressive, impatient drivers. (Vancouver, BC just got its first on-street, separate bike lane, and its a beauty, they went all out: http://www.flickr.com/photos/18789396@N00/2562075128/in/photostream/ unfortunately it's less than 1km long) The issue of safety, while important, is almost secondary to the fact that separated bike infrastructure will get people out riding bikes who won’t ride in painted lanes mixed with traffic. i.e. chicken cyclists like me.

The european bike facilities attract all kinds of cyclists - seniors, moms/dads with kids, young folk, etc…. everyone feels comfortable. How many of those people would cycle with traffic with buses buzzing by them??

If we want to seriously increase the number of people cycling in cities in the US and Canada - we need to build bike lanes that scaredy-cat cyclists will use. Period. All the training and education in the world isn’t going to make me want to ride in a lane I share with buses right next to aggressive, impatient drivers.

(Vancouver, BC just got its first on-street, separate bike lane, and its a beauty, they went all out: http://www.flickr.com/photos/18789396@N00/2562075128/in/photostream/ unfortunately it’s less than 1km long)

]]> by: Sabina Pade http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7681 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:18:03 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7681 I like WB's post. And I agree with Wholy Macaroni that suggesting separated bike lanes reduce safety is tantamount to advocating a Bushian alternative reality. Restricting vehicles generally to very low speeds does demonstrably improve safety, and is practicable in some cases. Let's however not pretend that even cyclists are going implement a 15mph limit over more than a tiny portion of a sprawling North American city. As a longtime former daily user of separated bike lanes, I remain 100% enthusiastic about them. It's not because separated bike lanes eliminate accidents. They don't; only thoughtful behaviour can. But separated bike lanes massively reduce stress and the concomitant road rage, for cyclist and motorist alike. I like WB’s post. And I agree with Wholy Macaroni that suggesting separated bike lanes reduce safety is tantamount to advocating a Bushian alternative reality.

Restricting vehicles generally to very low speeds does demonstrably improve safety, and is practicable in some cases. Let’s however not pretend that even cyclists are going implement a 15mph limit over more than a tiny portion of a sprawling North American city.

As a longtime former daily user of separated bike lanes, I remain 100% enthusiastic about them. It’s not because separated bike lanes eliminate accidents. They don’t; only thoughtful behaviour can. But separated bike lanes massively reduce stress and the concomitant road rage, for cyclist and motorist alike.

]]> by: Steve http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7662 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:45:14 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7662 Slow speeds for motorized traffic are very easy to get in this country -- all you need to do is replace the smooth pavement with cobblestones. Anyway, I read somewhere that the Dutch design bike lanes for a mom carrying her kid and a bag of groceries on a bike. A lane is safe enough if and only if that mom will feel safe in it. I'd like to see this focus here, too -- the key to getting respect for bikes is to have a lot of drivers who know what it is to be a cyclist, and the way to get that is to make it easy for *everyone* to ride. Slow speeds for motorized traffic are very easy to get in this country — all you need to do is replace the smooth pavement with cobblestones.

Anyway, I read somewhere that the Dutch design bike lanes for a mom carrying her kid and a bag of groceries on a bike. A lane is safe enough if and only if that mom will feel safe in it. I’d like to see this focus here, too — the key to getting respect for bikes is to have a lot of drivers who know what it is to be a cyclist, and the way to get that is to make it easy for *everyone* to ride.

]]> by: Brian http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7572 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 20:25:20 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7572 Wholly Macaroni: There is increasing evidence that the safest streets are those where modes are mixed, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, automobile speed is kept very low (15 mph) Some German towns are experimenting with eliminating signalized intersections, eliminating even sidewalks, etc. The key is very slow speeds by mototrized traffic. Sadly, as American culture is more violent, and as the American automobile is an extension of our manhood (did anyone see those vile Hummer ads), and the American motorist has a unique sense of entitlement (and is infuriated when said entitlement is impacted in any way) then it wouldn't work here. Wholly Macaroni: There is increasing evidence that the safest streets are those where modes are mixed, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, automobile speed is kept very low (15 mph) Some German towns are experimenting with eliminating signalized intersections, eliminating even sidewalks, etc. The key is very slow speeds by mototrized traffic.

Sadly, as American culture is more violent, and as the American automobile is an extension of our manhood (did anyone see those vile Hummer ads), and the American motorist has a unique sense of entitlement (and is infuriated when said entitlement is impacted in any way) then it wouldn’t work here.

]]> by: wes http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7527 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:04:11 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7527 Spencer, some of those pics aren't just from Holland. Quick glance, I see two from our very own NY. However, Holland rocks. The place to be for the non-spandex/helmet clad relaxed cyclists. Don't assume you are going to be traveling at 25 mph on your rickety barely 3-speed in this country. A nice pace that doesn't get your work clothes all sweaty will do the trick. My fav. Spencer, some of those pics aren’t just from Holland. Quick glance, I see two from our very own NY. However, Holland rocks. The place to be for the non-spandex/helmet clad relaxed cyclists. Don’t assume you are going to be traveling at 25 mph on your rickety barely 3-speed in this country. A nice pace that doesn’t get your work clothes all sweaty will do the trick. My fav.

]]> by: rbj http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7506 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:22:37 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7506 best of seattle what? Best New Urban Scold... http://www.seattleweekly.com/bestof/2008/award/best-new-urban-scold-477161/ best of seattle what?

Best New Urban Scold…

http://www.seattleweekly.com/bestof/2008/award/best-new-urban-scold-477161/

]]> by: Frank and Beans http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7483 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:27:51 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7483 Dan, you've got to start somewhere. Developing an effective mass transportation system like a subway takes time, but it's a solution for decreasing car depedency. Just like seperated bike lanes would be terrific for this city - it just takes time. By your rational we shouldn't do anything because it wouldn't immediately solve your problem. You're coming off like the typical Seattlelite - no wonder nothing gets done around here. Seems like in the mean time for bike commuters like ourselves, we need to be level headed and cautious. Dan, you’ve got to start somewhere. Developing an effective mass transportation system like a subway takes time, but it’s a solution for decreasing car depedency. Just like seperated bike lanes would be terrific for this city - it just takes time. By your rational we shouldn’t do anything because it wouldn’t immediately solve your problem. You’re coming off like the typical Seattlelite - no wonder nothing gets done around here. Seems like in the mean time for bike commuters like ourselves, we need to be level headed and cautious.

]]> by: Wholy Macaroni http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7480 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:23:54 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/07/someplace-somewheretheyve-got-it-figured-out/#comment-7480 Bike lanes are LESS safe than combining bikes and cars on the same pathway? This is the sort of alternate reality that the Bush administration has pushed Americans into thinking they exist. So what Josh Mahar is saying is that if all roadways were suddently turned into all bike lanes with no cars or pedestrians, bikers wouldn't be any safer?? Seems like an unsolvable solution then - where cycling is just inherently dangerous by itself and no infrastructure could solve it. Bike lanes are LESS safe than combining bikes and cars on the same pathway? This is the sort of alternate reality that the Bush administration has pushed Americans into thinking they exist.

So what Josh Mahar is saying is that if all roadways were suddently turned into all bike lanes with no cars or pedestrians, bikers wouldn’t be any safer?? Seems like an unsolvable solution then - where cycling is just inherently dangerous by itself and no infrastructure could solve it.

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