Comments on: Vanity is the Quicksand of Reason http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/ Efficiency is the straightest path to hell.* Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:34:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: joshuadf http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-51026 Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:55:02 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-51026 I just watched the TED online video of Joshua Prince-Ramus' <a href="http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/joshua_prince_ramus_on_seattle_s_library.html" rel="nofollow">Designing the Seattle Public Library</a> and he mentions in an aside that that awful 4th and Spring "public plaza" was a city requirement for the project! I'm sure SPL could have pushed back on that, but that total lack of understanding of what works on the street just makes me angry. <a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ae/378814_moment12.html" rel="nofollow">Prince-Ramus also is on the record</a> stating "The way-finding (signage) wasn't done perfectly, to put it kindly." Not that it helps us now, but at least he knows it was a mistake. I just watched the TED online video of Joshua Prince-Ramus’ Designing the Seattle Public Library and he mentions in an aside that that awful 4th and Spring “public plaza” was a city requirement for the project! I’m sure SPL could have pushed back on that, but that total lack of understanding of what works on the street just makes me angry.

Prince-Ramus also is on the record stating “The way-finding (signage) wasn’t done perfectly, to put it kindly.” Not that it helps us now, but at least he knows it was a mistake.

]]> by: Chris Stefan http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-39855 Sun, 14 Sep 2008 18:37:19 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-39855 Could the library design have been better? Perhaps, but as others have pointed out it is light-years ahead of what it replaced. Considering all of the horridly bad design going in around Seattle these days I actually wish we had more Koolhaas designed buildings. While NBBJ can design some real gems such as city hall and some of the neighborhood libraries they can also do some really awful work such as the Four Seasons (or to a lesser extent the WaMu/SAM building across the street). The other problem I have with NBBJ is they have a definite "house" style that seems fairly bland especially in a city like Seattle where there are so many buildings done by them or that emulate their style. Could the library design have been better? Perhaps, but as others have pointed out it is light-years ahead of what it replaced.

Considering all of the horridly bad design going in around Seattle these days I actually wish we had more Koolhaas designed buildings.

While NBBJ can design some real gems such as city hall and some of the neighborhood libraries they can also do some really awful work such as the Four Seasons (or to a lesser extent the WaMu/SAM building across the street). The other problem I have with NBBJ is they have a definite “house” style that seems fairly bland especially in a city like Seattle where there are so many buildings done by them or that emulate their style.

]]> by: BrianK http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-22523 Fri, 29 Aug 2008 06:48:11 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-22523 As neither a supposed Koolhaas idolater, nor a self-congratulatory scold of Koolhaas-idolaters, I have to wonder how much we should expect from our rare public buildings to make up for the deficiencies of all the crappy private ones. The PPS review Dan links to rips the SPL for not single-handedly rejuvenating streetlife in the downtown office core. But which Library activity do they wish could have "spilled" out onto the street? Reading a magazine? Or perhaps a children's story time? I wish when I was a kid at my local library that we could have heard the roar of rush-hour traffic while the nice librarian lady read us a story. And please don't tell me there should have been a coffee shop on the sidewalk. I go to the Library. As I arrive, walking, I AM the streetlife. I go in and out of the building. I AM the pedestrian activity. But when I get inside, I want a book, not a New Urbanist love-in. The place is a bitch to escape, signage sucks and it is hardly gives you a warm squishy hug on the sidewalk. Agreed. Take that Rem! But I love going up inside anyway and going to floor to floor, street to street and looking down into my city from endless perspectives. I love walking by, seeing it reflect the city like no other surface in town can. For a stodgy program (store and share recorded knowledge), and mundane context (gray 5pm high-rises) the design showed ambition and new attempts to solve tough problems. I watched Rem Blowhard unveil the design and it was a super-analytical, program-driven response. In fact, it was extreme reason that drive the design, not vanity. That should not excuse the building's real failures, and most likely is responsible for many of them. But as a rare Object in a sea of Bland, I'm still glad it happened to this whiny little town. As neither a supposed Koolhaas idolater, nor a self-congratulatory scold of Koolhaas-idolaters, I have to wonder how much we should expect from our rare public buildings to make up for the deficiencies of all the crappy private ones. The PPS review Dan links to rips the SPL for not single-handedly rejuvenating streetlife in the downtown office core. But which Library activity do they wish could have “spilled” out onto the street? Reading a magazine? Or perhaps a children’s story time? I wish when I was a kid at my local library that we could have heard the roar of rush-hour traffic while the nice librarian lady read us a story. And please don’t tell me there should have been a coffee shop on the sidewalk.

I go to the Library. As I arrive, walking, I AM the streetlife. I go in and out of the building. I AM the pedestrian activity. But when I get inside, I want a book, not a New Urbanist love-in.

The place is a bitch to escape, signage sucks and it is hardly gives you a warm squishy hug on the sidewalk. Agreed. Take that Rem! But I love going up inside anyway and going to floor to floor, street to street and looking down into my city from endless perspectives. I love walking by, seeing it reflect the city like no other surface in town can.

For a stodgy program (store and share recorded knowledge), and mundane context (gray 5pm high-rises) the design showed ambition and new attempts to solve tough problems. I watched Rem Blowhard unveil the design and it was a super-analytical, program-driven response. In fact, it was extreme reason that drive the design, not vanity. That should not excuse the building’s real failures, and most likely is responsible for many of them. But as a rare Object in a sea of Bland, I’m still glad it happened to this whiny little town.

]]> by: keith http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-22345 Fri, 29 Aug 2008 03:26:48 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-22345 Brian M. and Dan S.: No doubt that Seattle far surpasses Denver in "literaryness" (thought Denver does have a the Tattered Cover, which is a wonderful book store). I was just commenting on the fact that our library here actually gets used, despite its design flaws and the propensity of the architect to blow hot air. And Dan S., I agree thoroughly about the superiority of Seattle's bus transit in relation to Denver's, but the latter does have the advantage of a fairly comprehensive bicycle infrastructure. And back to SPL. I personally find it somewhat like a casino in Vegas: very easy to enter but difficult to exit. Brian M. and Dan S.: No doubt that Seattle far surpasses Denver in “literaryness” (thought Denver does have a the Tattered Cover, which is a wonderful book store). I was just commenting on the fact that our library here actually gets used, despite its design flaws and the propensity of the architect to blow hot air. And Dan S., I agree thoroughly about the superiority of Seattle’s bus transit in relation to Denver’s, but the latter does have the advantage of a fairly comprehensive bicycle infrastructure.

And back to SPL. I personally find it somewhat like a casino in Vegas: very easy to enter but difficult to exit.

]]> by: dan bertolet http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21959 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:48:48 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21959 The Project for Public Spaces published an insightful review of the SPL: http://www.pps.org/info/newsletter/july2004/july_2004_feature The Project for Public Spaces published an insightful review of the SPL:

http://www.pps.org/info/newsletter/july2004/july_2004_feature

]]> by: michael strangeways http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21899 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:35:36 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21899 I like the building but have to agree that it doesn't fit the space at all well...it's a building that belongs on a promontory overlooking the harbor... the interior is highly successful...for the production design of a Kubrick film. I like the building but have to agree that it doesn’t fit the space at all well…it’s a building that belongs on a promontory overlooking the harbor…

the interior is highly successful…for the production design of a Kubrick film.

]]> by: Matt the Engineer http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21885 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:21:54 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21885 I wonder if it's the same reaction that you'd have if a coworker came in with their head shaved and painted silver. It's a bit rude to tell them it's strange and ugly, and maybe you're just not used to the new style yet. I wonder if it’s the same reaction that you’d have if a coworker came in with their head shaved and painted silver. It’s a bit rude to tell them it’s strange and ugly, and maybe you’re just not used to the new style yet.

]]> by: David Sucher http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21877 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:14:05 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21877 Very heartening to me to hear such widespread disgust with the library building design and also the City's (Library Board, technically) decision. So many design-types in Seattle were just "Oh! Wow!" when it was brand new. Very heartening to me to hear such widespread disgust with the library building design and also the City’s (Library Board, technically) decision.

So many design-types in Seattle were just “Oh! Wow!” when it was brand new.

]]> by: Bob http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21787 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:13:18 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21787 This is 100% object building that could have been plopped down in any city anywhere. I agree - it's rude to the street and clearly doesn't care about setting or context. I put the blame on the City - they could have required better street-level treatment but it seems they were happy with a starchitect's object. (I happen to find the interior interesting but that was just as a visitor, not as a library user.) This is 100% object building that could have been plopped down in any city anywhere. I agree - it’s rude to the street and clearly doesn’t care about setting or context. I put the blame on the City - they could have required better street-level treatment but it seems they were happy with a starchitect’s object. (I happen to find the interior interesting but that was just as a visitor, not as a library user.)

]]> by: Dan Staley http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21778 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:05:38 +0000 http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/08/27/vanity-is-the-quicksand-of-reason/#comment-21778 Denver and Seattle are not comparable wrt literaryness. When I lived in Seattle, the gray skies lent impetus to read and visit the liberry. In Denver, the blue skies and fine weather lend impetus to go outside. Plus, the transit systems aren't comparable either and h*ll if I'm going to drive down to the Denver library, and the distance from the light rail-shuttle makes it annoying on a hot or cold day). My book reading is off since I moved here, because it is so easy to be outside doing something. The central libraries aren't comparable either, as the Denver is of a more traditional design, and you can actually find your way around in there, as it has all the expected qualities and features you need in a library: bookshelves, card catalogs and signs to get you to the book you need. There are some features of the Seattle library that I like, but I wish that some of these features weren't found in a library - it's an interesting building, but typically disconnected from the surroundings and not designed well to get you to the book you want. Denver and Seattle are not comparable wrt literaryness. When I lived in Seattle, the gray skies lent impetus to read and visit the liberry. In Denver, the blue skies and fine weather lend impetus to go outside. Plus, the transit systems aren’t comparable either and h*ll if I’m going to drive down to the Denver library, and the distance from the light rail-shuttle makes it annoying on a hot or cold day). My book reading is off since I moved here, because it is so easy to be outside doing something.

The central libraries aren’t comparable either, as the Denver is of a more traditional design, and you can actually find your way around in there, as it has all the expected qualities and features you need in a library: bookshelves, card catalogs and signs to get you to the book you need. There are some features of the Seattle library that I like, but I wish that some of these features weren’t found in a library - it’s an interesting building, but typically disconnected from the surroundings and not designed well to get you to the book you want.

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