<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.0.2" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Fear of Heights</title>
	<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/</link>
	<description>Efficiency is the straightest path to hell.*</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2</generator>

	<item>
		<title>by: joshuadf</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-28638</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-28638</guid>
					<description>Very interesting. The new &lt;a href=&quot;http://lothlorienapartments.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lothlorien Apartments&lt;/a&gt; on the Ave in the U-District is 7 stories. It is right next to and matches the height of the Wilsonian (built 1922). I'm not a construction expert, but as it was going up it seemed more solidly build than the nearby 5+1 story &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.helix-ellipse.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Helix-Ellipse&lt;/a&gt; two blocks away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting. The new <a href="http://lothlorienapartments.com/" rel="nofollow">Lothlorien Apartments</a> on the Ave in the U-District is 7 stories. It is right next to and matches the height of the Wilsonian (built 1922). I&#8217;m not a construction expert, but as it was going up it seemed more solidly build than the nearby 5+1 story <a href="http://www.helix-ellipse.com/" rel="nofollow">Helix-Ellipse</a> two blocks away.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: GW</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-27900</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-27900</guid>
					<description>Steve@14: The typical cost upcharge on going from a level of wood construction to a level of concrete construction is in the neighborhood of $12-$15 per square foot (for the structure only, not counting anything else).  That may not sound like much, but it's actually a substantial amount of money when multiplied out over a floor plate.  When buildings get tall enough (8 to 10 stories or so), the re-use of formwork and other repetitive elements increase the economic feasibility of concrete.  Below that, the incrased costs aren't really offset that much by those things.  In order to offset the cost, you have to increase sale price/lease rates per square foot.  In lower buildings, that's hard to do without kicking yourself into the luxury/Class A category (where buyers are more sophisticated and willing to pay big premiums for having concrete slabs above and below them).  You certainly can't do it and keep rates affordable for median incomes.

There's also a limit on how high up in the air you can put combustible (i.e. wood) construction.  No combustible construction is allowed above the reach of fire department ladders plus hose spray, for instance.

Finally, wood structures taller than five stories experience significant problems due to differential shrinkage of wood plates over time, so the practical limit on wood buildings is five stories even though they could probably go higher than that and still be structurally sound.

So, that's why you see a lot of 5 plus 1 wood over concrete buildings.  They're very cost-efficient within the boundaries of their limitations.

If you want buildings to be taller than 65 feet, you've got to allow them to get tall enough that the economics of steel and wood construction make them &quot;pencil out.&quot;  That means at least 105 feet, and preferably 120 feet or more.  It's a quantum jump, rather than an incremental rise along a continuum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve@14: The typical cost upcharge on going from a level of wood construction to a level of concrete construction is in the neighborhood of $12-$15 per square foot (for the structure only, not counting anything else).  That may not sound like much, but it&#8217;s actually a substantial amount of money when multiplied out over a floor plate.  When buildings get tall enough (8 to 10 stories or so), the re-use of formwork and other repetitive elements increase the economic feasibility of concrete.  Below that, the incrased costs aren&#8217;t really offset that much by those things.  In order to offset the cost, you have to increase sale price/lease rates per square foot.  In lower buildings, that&#8217;s hard to do without kicking yourself into the luxury/Class A category (where buyers are more sophisticated and willing to pay big premiums for having concrete slabs above and below them).  You certainly can&#8217;t do it and keep rates affordable for median incomes.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also a limit on how high up in the air you can put combustible (i.e. wood) construction.  No combustible construction is allowed above the reach of fire department ladders plus hose spray, for instance.</p>
<p>Finally, wood structures taller than five stories experience significant problems due to differential shrinkage of wood plates over time, so the practical limit on wood buildings is five stories even though they could probably go higher than that and still be structurally sound.</p>
<p>So, that&#8217;s why you see a lot of 5 plus 1 wood over concrete buildings.  They&#8217;re very cost-efficient within the boundaries of their limitations.</p>
<p>If you want buildings to be taller than 65 feet, you&#8217;ve got to allow them to get tall enough that the economics of steel and wood construction make them &#8220;pencil out.&#8221;  That means at least 105 feet, and preferably 120 feet or more.  It&#8217;s a quantum jump, rather than an incremental rise along a continuum.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Steve</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-27114</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-27114</guid>
					<description>GW@11: Is there a technical reason someone couldn't build taller with more concrete stories without going fully concrete (e.g. 5 stories of wood over 3 stories of concrete)?

Kate G@13: I think the (non-boulevard) streets of Paris do tend to be narrower than Seattle's, but aren't most Parisian buildings designed around an central courtyard?  I have the impression that a Parisian apartment's lot coverage is much less than a comparable Seattle building.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GW@11: Is there a technical reason someone couldn&#8217;t build taller with more concrete stories without going fully concrete (e.g. 5 stories of wood over 3 stories of concrete)?</p>
<p>Kate G@13: I think the (non-boulevard) streets of Paris do tend to be narrower than Seattle&#8217;s, but aren&#8217;t most Parisian buildings designed around an central courtyard?  I have the impression that a Parisian apartment&#8217;s lot coverage is much less than a comparable Seattle building.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Kate G.</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26894</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26894</guid>
					<description>I have never visited the city of Paris -- except second-hand by watching the movies filmed there -- and I have perhaps a dumb question about density: Aren't most of the Paris streets a good deal narrower than Seattle streets, meaning that horizontal building coverage in Paris is substantially greater per square mile than horizontal building coverage in Seattle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never visited the city of Paris &#8212; except second-hand by watching the movies filmed there &#8212; and I have perhaps a dumb question about density: Aren&#8217;t most of the Paris streets a good deal narrower than Seattle streets, meaning that horizontal building coverage in Paris is substantially greater per square mile than horizontal building coverage in Seattle?
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26790</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26790</guid>
					<description>I recently visited Vancouver and their Olympic Village project management office. It was interesting to hear from several people very involved with both the northern section of False Creek (basically a master planned development by Concord Pacific, where most of the tall skinny buildings are) and SE False Creek (w/the Olympic Village) have actually rethought the tall skinny thing and seem to be moving more toward 5-8 story buildings as an agreeable massing for &quot;livable&quot; neighborhoods. 

More broadly, I think there's a danger of the &quot;density&quot; and &quot;height&quot; arguments getting conflated. They are not one and the same, and can be mutually defeating if groups like this SLU group are successful in using their 400 ft scare tactics to throw people off of density in general. The key here, it seems, is to make the argument for a diversity of building types - it's about the package of livability, not just the skinny tower.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently visited Vancouver and their Olympic Village project management office. It was interesting to hear from several people very involved with both the northern section of False Creek (basically a master planned development by Concord Pacific, where most of the tall skinny buildings are) and SE False Creek (w/the Olympic Village) have actually rethought the tall skinny thing and seem to be moving more toward 5-8 story buildings as an agreeable massing for &#8220;livable&#8221; neighborhoods. </p>
<p>More broadly, I think there&#8217;s a danger of the &#8220;density&#8221; and &#8220;height&#8221; arguments getting conflated. They are not one and the same, and can be mutually defeating if groups like this SLU group are successful in using their 400 ft scare tactics to throw people off of density in general. The key here, it seems, is to make the argument for a diversity of building types - it&#8217;s about the package of livability, not just the skinny tower.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: GW</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26753</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26753</guid>
					<description>RE: Heights

One thing that seems to be missing from most discussions of height limits in denser zones is the &quot;dead zone&quot; between 65 and 105-120 feet.  At 65 feet and below, it is practical to use wood frame over concrete plinth construction (5 floors of wood over one concrete level).  Above 65 feet, you've got to upgrade the structure to steel or concrete all the way up.  That typically doesn't work economically until you get up above 8 to 10 stories.  So, zones with 85-foot height limits  usually wind up being underbuilt, or filled with buildings that are unaffordable and/or vanity projects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Heights</p>
<p>One thing that seems to be missing from most discussions of height limits in denser zones is the &#8220;dead zone&#8221; between 65 and 105-120 feet.  At 65 feet and below, it is practical to use wood frame over concrete plinth construction (5 floors of wood over one concrete level).  Above 65 feet, you&#8217;ve got to upgrade the structure to steel or concrete all the way up.  That typically doesn&#8217;t work economically until you get up above 8 to 10 stories.  So, zones with 85-foot height limits  usually wind up being underbuilt, or filled with buildings that are unaffordable and/or vanity projects.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: cjh</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26683</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26683</guid>
					<description>To be honest, I am not a terribly big fan of Paris proper as urban design or French gardening which is, unsurprisingly, the dominant design mode for Parisian green space.  Baron Haussmann's renovation and the subsequent museumification of the city have simply always left me cold.  Even as a tourist, I found myself rather oppressed by the 19th century bourgeois stone and plaster monotony of much of the city while enjoying the bits that were too sacred or too unimportant to feel the sledgehammer.

But that's not the important thing; rather, Parisian parkland largely works as open space because it is readily accessible and the two large edge parks are VERY large.  Bigger than Central Park or Hyde Park (and there are two of them!) and designed in the English style - thankfully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be honest, I am not a terribly big fan of Paris proper as urban design or French gardening which is, unsurprisingly, the dominant design mode for Parisian green space.  Baron Haussmann&#8217;s renovation and the subsequent museumification of the city have simply always left me cold.  Even as a tourist, I found myself rather oppressed by the 19th century bourgeois stone and plaster monotony of much of the city while enjoying the bits that were too sacred or too unimportant to feel the sledgehammer.</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s not the important thing; rather, Parisian parkland largely works as open space because it is readily accessible and the two large edge parks are VERY large.  Bigger than Central Park or Hyde Park (and there are two of them!) and designed in the English style - thankfully.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: joshuadf</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26678</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26678</guid>
					<description>Thanks for the insightful comment Sabina; I think you are correct that there it is really &quot;city&quot; underlying a lot of these fears. Unfortunately what most Seattlites know of city downtowns is a cold empty financial district. I don't think I would know differently if I had not lived in Japan as an exchange student.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the insightful comment Sabina; I think you are correct that there it is really &#8220;city&#8221; underlying a lot of these fears. Unfortunately what most Seattlites know of city downtowns is a cold empty financial district. I don&#8217;t think I would know differently if I had not lived in Japan as an exchange student.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Madisonian</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26581</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26581</guid>
					<description>Can't we just copy Vancouver's &quot;tall skinny&quot; zoning for certain areas, like South Lake Union? I guess that's naive, but really...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t we just copy Vancouver&#8217;s &#8220;tall skinny&#8221; zoning for certain areas, like South Lake Union? I guess that&#8217;s naive, but really&#8230;
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Sabina Pade</title>
		<link>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26153</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 00:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/01/fear-of-heights/#comment-26153</guid>
					<description>Fear of heights, or fear of city?  Tim Soeren's query &quot;...will we have an extension of downtown, or a real neighbourhood?&quot; I think is a very telling manifestation of the underlying sentiment.

CJH above excellently shows us that Paris devotes less of its total area to parkland than does Seattle.  Being mostly flat and homogenously mid-rise, Paris does not offer a majority of its residents the possibility of an unimpeded view from their dwellings.  Yet people clamour to the place; a great number of those who live there wouldn't want to live anywhere else.  It would appear that Parisians appreciate their hometown because of, not in spite of, its city-ness.

Likely most Seattleites hope that South Lake Union will become a diverse neighbourhood complete with housing for the less affluent, places of worship and schools.  No question it would be wise for planners to mandate the inclusion of low-revenue spaces such as these, with housing for the working class a foremost priority.  The Lake Union Opportunity Aliance is spot on about this.

Yet development will inevitably lead to people's views being blocked, regardless of the building heights and massing allowed by code.  To pretend otherwise is dishonest.  The real issue here, I think, is whether enough Seattleites will in a timely way realize that density is key to a healthy city - and that an unimpeded view is not a healthy city's greatest gift to its inhabitants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fear of heights, or fear of city?  Tim Soeren&#8217;s query &#8220;&#8230;will we have an extension of downtown, or a real neighbourhood?&#8221; I think is a very telling manifestation of the underlying sentiment.</p>
<p>CJH above excellently shows us that Paris devotes less of its total area to parkland than does Seattle.  Being mostly flat and homogenously mid-rise, Paris does not offer a majority of its residents the possibility of an unimpeded view from their dwellings.  Yet people clamour to the place; a great number of those who live there wouldn&#8217;t want to live anywhere else.  It would appear that Parisians appreciate their hometown because of, not in spite of, its city-ness.</p>
<p>Likely most Seattleites hope that South Lake Union will become a diverse neighbourhood complete with housing for the less affluent, places of worship and schools.  No question it would be wise for planners to mandate the inclusion of low-revenue spaces such as these, with housing for the working class a foremost priority.  The Lake Union Opportunity Aliance is spot on about this.</p>
<p>Yet development will inevitably lead to people&#8217;s views being blocked, regardless of the building heights and massing allowed by code.  To pretend otherwise is dishonest.  The real issue here, I think, is whether enough Seattleites will in a timely way realize that density is key to a healthy city - and that an unimpeded view is not a healthy city&#8217;s greatest gift to its inhabitants.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic Page Served (once) in 0.369 seconds -->
